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My thought process started with “Aww, she’s dream dating now.” and ended with “I want to hit a bitch.”.
I’m also somewhat confused. I mean, yeah, I know this is fiction so there is leeway for some unlikely scenarios, but surely there are background rules of some sort about treatment of prisoners and so on. I can believe that, in some cases, torture would be overlooked during an interrogation if the captors believe the prisoner has information. I’m not sure I can believe that an incident like this could be, and especially not if it is, as implied, part of a sick crusade for revenge.
Of course not only is my knowledge of war extremely limited, but I haven’t slept in 60+ hours. This may make all the sense in the world tomorrow.
It is common, for a military that does not stringently abide by the Geneva Convention rules to do these sorts of things. some examples being Unit 731 during WW2, weapons and biological testing was done to humans interned there.
Another example was how the North Vietnamese treated American soldiers during the Vietnam War, a lot of what was done to the prisoners was very inhumane.
If a country is not concerned on how they are viewed in the eyes of other countries, they can do whatever they want and ignore the Geneva Convention laws.
One large dose of caffeine later and I can see that query was a little dimwitted. I suppose I was hoping that the historic examples were just that, historic, despite being aware of a few more recent incidents. Here I was hoping that humanity and decency still existed in POW camps (if that’s what they’re called).
Even the thought that it’s potentially common disgusts me.
And Coop, going by what Nich said, I’d assume that they created something like the Geneva Convention to cover every colonised planet that agreed to it. Well, I’d hope they did, anyway.
There is no true way to enforce the Geneva Convention rules (who is going to scold two countries going to war? What are you going to do to them ? Put them in jail?).
They are more like gentleman’s rules.
Take, for example, you and your best friends decide to fight over the last cupcake. You both agree not to bite, scratch, poke, or attack the groin areas (or pull hair if you are a girl). You self enforce these rules, knowing that you will lose your friend and the friendship of others around you if you ball punch your buddy.
But if that cupcake is important enough to you, damn the rules (and the respect of your peers), you want that chocolate goodness.
Korea is a good example of this during the Korean War, when they captured Americans they fed them twice a day, gave them medical attention, and allowed them to practice religion on whatever holy day their religion dictated so. They made them perform labor that did not benefit the Korean war effort (like street sweeping as opposed to making bombs). When the fighting was over, they released the POWs without incident.
You don’t NEED a Geneva convention per se, but it is like the Pirate code, not necessarily RULES, but a good set out guidelines.
Basically you accept the Geneva convention because you want your own people to be treated fairly too if they are captured. At least that was the thinking when it was put into place. However in the case of asymmetrical wars this need not apply as one side will have more pressure on it to comply to the convention than the other.
However, what is more sad than the breach of the Geneva convention here is that Hammer is starting to forget how her friends looked. After having moved quite often myself I can understand how she feels about that but luckily I always found new friends. I do not think that that is a possibility for Hammer though. And that is heartbreaking.
Let’s just state, for the record, that it has been found that torture rarely produces reliable Intel. Push somebody far enough and they will sing like a canary, telling you what you want to hear (not necessarily anything resembling truth). You can make them say anything, or do anything. Break them enough and you can make them believe and say that “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” or that 2 + 2 = 5.
That is true nameless and also when you think about it the terran navy rendered articles like the geneva covention mute when they used the genetic plaque on the civilian pupulations of the colonies and who knows what the long term effects to the human race will be. Also were is hammer being held because I have these feeling that something very big and very bloody is going to happen very soon.
Picard was just about to say that when they saved him… it just took longer than an average man would to crack him.
And in war, especially one as hate-charged as this one seems to be (and especially with such hate-charged people as the rebel leader), there’s no rules. Atrocities happen, and people commit them happily. And when they hear of the other side doing the same thing to their people, it just increases the hate.
The best advice I got before going to Iraq (I am a Marine) was given to me by one of my Sgt’s.
He said, “There are rules for war, and we must try to abiide by them as well as possible, but there will be times when you feel you will be able to get away with something you shouldn’t. Something that would land you in jail for several lifetimes. Maybe you will get away with it, maybe not. But just remember, don’t do anything over there that you will regret 5 years later. Trust me.”
And another torture scene… wow, lets see if I can keep the pizza I just finished down for the rest of the night.
Okay, dude, we get it. We do, Hammer is trapped on a ship and is being beaten. I don’t think we need anymore than what you’ve given us. At this rate, you’re going to be reaching Marvel and DC levels of stupid writing.
Dude, I am sorry but I have been following along for awhile now… for years. I went back and reread the whole thing when I first started, which was wayyy back in 2003. I love the writing, I love the evolution of the artwork involved and to see where things have gone since I first started to read.
But frankly, I cannot read this and NOT be sick because what I see here is all the bad I see in Marvel and DC, where death, torture, and bad things happening to favorite characters seem to happen for no good reason. I know you’ve set your reasons about why this stuff is happening, and that it has a solid foundation as to why, but I read this and think back to how it used to be, and I get a little nauseous. I am going to continue to read this because I honestly do not know how things will end and I love the characters and the setting, but this just… it’s too much for me.
I know that you have a plan… *cues Previously On BSG music* And that you’re going to follow it through, and that it will all work out in the end, but I am honestly scared of your work reaching the levels of stupid, in some regards, of what Marvel and DC is putting out these days. I read web comics like these to get away from that crap because there are some genuinely great writers out there, and you’re one of them.
I can see Jamie’s point, in that we should remain conscious of violence for the sake of violence. And in a way, it’s good that Jamie is sickened and horrified by what’s happening to Hammer. As was said in “The Warrior” series, “The day you get used to this is the day I want to get as far away from you as possible.”
However, everyone has their own limits, and an artist is never going to be able to please everyone, or stay within everyone’s sensibility without watering down their art by appealing to the lowest common denominator. Some might say “I’ve read the comic for years, but I’m worried about you reaching stupid levels of cheesecake with all the gratuitous cleavage” or “You’re reaching stupid levels of preachiness with all the political narrative”. A good artist will accept critcism without pandering, but that doesn’t make the artist, or the work, “stupid”. It just means that the preferences of the artist differ from your own.
Honestly, I see multiple reasons we’re being shown Hammer’s torture. There’s the simple fact that we need to know why Hammer will eventually show up missing a hand and looking ragged. Showing the events, in part at least, gives us empathy for Hammer’s experience on a far greater level than simply saying “Oh, and Hammer was tortured”. Finally, by showing us, first hand, the atrocities commited by BOTH sides of the conflict, it allows us to choose for ourselves who the villans are, and who the heroes are. The Angels may be the protagonists, but the authors aren’t force-feeding us with the fact that they’re the “good guys”. Sometimes, the protagonist is not very good at all…a la “Dirty Harry”, “Punisher”, “Ghost Rider”…etc.
Just food for thought.
Well, good points all, and I’m thankful you’ve been reading so long Jamie
All I can really do is ask you to keep trusting me when I say there is a reason to show what Hammer is going through, which will be made clear later in the story. I know exactly what you mean about Marvel / DC where they start with really cool characters who always seem to turn into twisted, bitter versions of themselves. Well, I will be putting the Angels through the wringer (Not much drama otherwise) but part of the drama is also about how they struggle to cling to their core values and humanity despite all the shit going on around them and happening to them.
The beginning of this part of the story has been very downbeat, but that was pretty hard to avoid given how the last part ended. Just believe me when I say that it’s about to upswing very shortly, and continue that way for a while.
Also, I make a solemn pledge. This series shall contain no women in refrigerators, unless for satirical value.
on the list of nicely learn write-up I’ve got examine today, it reminds me of men and women who seem to talk with its strategy before people soar straight into something.
August 7th, 2010 at 1:28 am
[...] [...]
August 7th, 2010 at 4:36 am
My thought process started with “Aww, she’s dream dating now.” and ended with “I want to hit a bitch.”.
I’m also somewhat confused. I mean, yeah, I know this is fiction so there is leeway for some unlikely scenarios, but surely there are background rules of some sort about treatment of prisoners and so on. I can believe that, in some cases, torture would be overlooked during an interrogation if the captors believe the prisoner has information. I’m not sure I can believe that an incident like this could be, and especially not if it is, as implied, part of a sick crusade for revenge.
Of course not only is my knowledge of war extremely limited, but I haven’t slept in 60+ hours. This may make all the sense in the world tomorrow.
August 7th, 2010 at 5:26 am
It is common, for a military that does not stringently abide by the Geneva Convention rules to do these sorts of things. some examples being Unit 731 during WW2, weapons and biological testing was done to humans interned there.
Another example was how the North Vietnamese treated American soldiers during the Vietnam War, a lot of what was done to the prisoners was very inhumane.
If a country is not concerned on how they are viewed in the eyes of other countries, they can do whatever they want and ignore the Geneva Convention laws.
August 7th, 2010 at 6:19 am
Also being this is a war of sorts between Earth and extra terrestrial colonies, the Geneva Accords my not apply.
August 7th, 2010 at 6:48 am
One large dose of caffeine later and I can see that query was a little dimwitted. I suppose I was hoping that the historic examples were just that, historic, despite being aware of a few more recent incidents. Here I was hoping that humanity and decency still existed in POW camps (if that’s what they’re called).
Even the thought that it’s potentially common disgusts me.
And Coop, going by what Nich said, I’d assume that they created something like the Geneva Convention to cover every colonised planet that agreed to it. Well, I’d hope they did, anyway.
August 7th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
I think that this bitch is gonna find that Karma can go both ways.
August 7th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
There is no true way to enforce the Geneva Convention rules (who is going to scold two countries going to war? What are you going to do to them ? Put them in jail?).
They are more like gentleman’s rules.
Take, for example, you and your best friends decide to fight over the last cupcake. You both agree not to bite, scratch, poke, or attack the groin areas (or pull hair if you are a girl). You self enforce these rules, knowing that you will lose your friend and the friendship of others around you if you ball punch your buddy.
But if that cupcake is important enough to you, damn the rules (and the respect of your peers), you want that chocolate goodness.
Korea is a good example of this during the Korean War, when they captured Americans they fed them twice a day, gave them medical attention, and allowed them to practice religion on whatever holy day their religion dictated so. They made them perform labor that did not benefit the Korean war effort (like street sweeping as opposed to making bombs). When the fighting was over, they released the POWs without incident.
You don’t NEED a Geneva convention per se, but it is like the Pirate code, not necessarily RULES, but a good set out guidelines.
August 8th, 2010 at 7:54 am
Basically you accept the Geneva convention because you want your own people to be treated fairly too if they are captured. At least that was the thinking when it was put into place. However in the case of asymmetrical wars this need not apply as one side will have more pressure on it to comply to the convention than the other.
However, what is more sad than the breach of the Geneva convention here is that Hammer is starting to forget how her friends looked. After having moved quite often myself I can understand how she feels about that but luckily I always found new friends. I do not think that that is a possibility for Hammer though. And that is heartbreaking.
August 9th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
Let’s just state, for the record, that it has been found that torture rarely produces reliable Intel. Push somebody far enough and they will sing like a canary, telling you what you want to hear (not necessarily anything resembling truth). You can make them say anything, or do anything. Break them enough and you can make them believe and say that “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” or that 2 + 2 = 5.
Yeah, I know. I quoted “1984″ by George Orwell.
August 9th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
But you can never make Captain Picard believe that there are 5 lights.
August 9th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
well you have to remember that most separatists armed forces don’t abide by the laws of established proper armed forces because they can’t afford to.
August 9th, 2010 at 7:03 pm
This isn’t about any military action. They’re hurting Hammer because they hurt, and they see her as being less than human.
August 10th, 2010 at 7:55 am
That is true nameless and also when you think about it the terran navy rendered articles like the geneva covention mute when they used the genetic plaque on the civilian pupulations of the colonies and who knows what the long term effects to the human race will be. Also were is hammer being held because I have these feeling that something very big and very bloody is going to happen very soon.
August 10th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
Picard was just about to say that when they saved him… it just took longer than an average man would to crack him.
And in war, especially one as hate-charged as this one seems to be (and especially with such hate-charged people as the rebel leader), there’s no rules. Atrocities happen, and people commit them happily. And when they hear of the other side doing the same thing to their people, it just increases the hate.
August 10th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
The best advice I got before going to Iraq (I am a Marine) was given to me by one of my Sgt’s.
He said, “There are rules for war, and we must try to abiide by them as well as possible, but there will be times when you feel you will be able to get away with something you shouldn’t. Something that would land you in jail for several lifetimes. Maybe you will get away with it, maybe not. But just remember, don’t do anything over there that you will regret 5 years later. Trust me.”
August 11th, 2010 at 10:35 am
And another torture scene… wow, lets see if I can keep the pizza I just finished down for the rest of the night.
Okay, dude, we get it. We do, Hammer is trapped on a ship and is being beaten. I don’t think we need anymore than what you’ve given us. At this rate, you’re going to be reaching Marvel and DC levels of stupid writing.
August 11th, 2010 at 11:33 am
Ouch….verily, one could bleed from such wounds
August 11th, 2010 at 11:36 am
While I’m at it, please don’t judge my writing until you’ve read the whole story arc…thats like judging a building based on its foundations.
August 12th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Dude, I am sorry but I have been following along for awhile now… for years. I went back and reread the whole thing when I first started, which was wayyy back in 2003. I love the writing, I love the evolution of the artwork involved and to see where things have gone since I first started to read.
But frankly, I cannot read this and NOT be sick because what I see here is all the bad I see in Marvel and DC, where death, torture, and bad things happening to favorite characters seem to happen for no good reason. I know you’ve set your reasons about why this stuff is happening, and that it has a solid foundation as to why, but I read this and think back to how it used to be, and I get a little nauseous. I am going to continue to read this because I honestly do not know how things will end and I love the characters and the setting, but this just… it’s too much for me.
I know that you have a plan… *cues Previously On BSG music* And that you’re going to follow it through, and that it will all work out in the end, but I am honestly scared of your work reaching the levels of stupid, in some regards, of what Marvel and DC is putting out these days. I read web comics like these to get away from that crap because there are some genuinely great writers out there, and you’re one of them.
That’s just how I feel right now.
August 12th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
I can see Jamie’s point, in that we should remain conscious of violence for the sake of violence. And in a way, it’s good that Jamie is sickened and horrified by what’s happening to Hammer. As was said in “The Warrior” series, “The day you get used to this is the day I want to get as far away from you as possible.”
However, everyone has their own limits, and an artist is never going to be able to please everyone, or stay within everyone’s sensibility without watering down their art by appealing to the lowest common denominator. Some might say “I’ve read the comic for years, but I’m worried about you reaching stupid levels of cheesecake with all the gratuitous cleavage” or “You’re reaching stupid levels of preachiness with all the political narrative”. A good artist will accept critcism without pandering, but that doesn’t make the artist, or the work, “stupid”. It just means that the preferences of the artist differ from your own.
Honestly, I see multiple reasons we’re being shown Hammer’s torture. There’s the simple fact that we need to know why Hammer will eventually show up missing a hand and looking ragged. Showing the events, in part at least, gives us empathy for Hammer’s experience on a far greater level than simply saying “Oh, and Hammer was tortured”. Finally, by showing us, first hand, the atrocities commited by BOTH sides of the conflict, it allows us to choose for ourselves who the villans are, and who the heroes are. The Angels may be the protagonists, but the authors aren’t force-feeding us with the fact that they’re the “good guys”. Sometimes, the protagonist is not very good at all…a la “Dirty Harry”, “Punisher”, “Ghost Rider”…etc.
Just food for thought.
August 13th, 2010 at 6:54 am
Well, good points all, and I’m thankful you’ve been reading so long Jamie
All I can really do is ask you to keep trusting me when I say there is a reason to show what Hammer is going through, which will be made clear later in the story. I know exactly what you mean about Marvel / DC where they start with really cool characters who always seem to turn into twisted, bitter versions of themselves. Well, I will be putting the Angels through the wringer (Not much drama otherwise) but part of the drama is also about how they struggle to cling to their core values and humanity despite all the shit going on around them and happening to them.
The beginning of this part of the story has been very downbeat, but that was pretty hard to avoid given how the last part ended. Just believe me when I say that it’s about to upswing very shortly, and continue that way for a while.
Also, I make a solemn pledge. This series shall contain no women in refrigerators, unless for satirical value.
August 14th, 2010 at 8:15 am
Loving it. War is hell. I much prefer this kind of portrayal to the “smoke me a kipper, I’ll be back for breakfast” type…
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:11 pm
on the list of nicely learn write-up I’ve got examine today, it reminds me of men and women who seem to talk with its strategy before people soar straight into something.